Intermountain coupler choices

Why would they have to job them out- They don't have the Technology- or the ability to produce them?? Are HO and N scales sold with plastic wheels?? Some are- lots aren't!!
Older box cars had metal floors- some newer ones have plastic-- The new wood side refer has metal-- sure seems if they wanted to---
economics- Like I mentioned- add it to cost of each car--there would be a savings- not seen- we would't have to replace the plastic. They would roll better- and they may not fall out as often. and we wouldn't end up with a stash of wheels we don't know what to do with.. We would even save on postage!!
I had to replace my G scale wheels to metal- seems like the industry standard and not thinking of the hobbiest.
Well before there was roadbed track- I was vocal about it-= Ask John Harmon--Bob Olsen- and some of the London Bridge Group! One of our Zer's even made plastic roadbed that fit under Marklin- or maybe MTL track--I Know- I got 100 pieces!!.
If we were vocal enough we might get metal wheels from MTL- We have em in AZL- now intermountain- and for sure Full Throttle and maeklin. MTL is big enough to handle the wheels. Not sure about the Japanese market.
Seems like a lot of thier out sourcing has gone bad-
Now I will fall off my soap box.
Thanks for listening.
Fred

Fred wrote: Why would they have to job them out- They don't have the Technology- or the ability to produce them?? Are HO and N scales sold with plastic wheels?? Some are- lots aren't!!
Older box cars had metal floors- some newer ones have plastic-- The new wood side refer has metal-- sure seems if they wanted to---
economics- Like I mentioned- add it to cost of each car--there would be a savings- not seen- we would't have to replace the plastic. They would roll better- and they may not fall out as often. and we wouldn't end up with a stash of wheels we don't know what to do with.. We would even save on postage!!
I had to replace my G scale wheels to metal- seems like the industry standard and not thinking of the hobbiest.
Well before there was roadbed track- I was vocal about it-= Ask John Harmon--Bob Olsen- and some of the London Bridge Group! One of our Zer's even made plastic roadbed that fit under Marklin- or maybe MTL track--I Know- I got 100 pieces!!.
If we were vocal enough we might get metal wheels from MTL- We have em in AZL- now intermountain- and for sure Full Throttle and maeklin. MTL is big enough to handle the wheels. Not sure about the Japanese market.
Seems like a lot of thier out sourcing has gone bad-
Now I will fall off my soap box.
Thanks for listening.
Fred

Metal wheels are much more expensive to produce than plastic ones because they require CNC lathes, plus the wheels themselves are made one at a time, and then assembled. Four parts: two turned wheels, one turned axle, and one insulator. Very labor-intensive. MTL does not have this equipment, so it would have to be jobbed out.

Plastic wheels can be injection-molded by the thousands very quickly. They can pull maybe as many as a million or more shots from a really good mold, maybe as many as a half-dozen wheels at a time. Plus, that's MTL's specialty: tooling excellent molds. So, from an economics standpoint, plastic wheels are not only cheaper for them to produce, they're also very easy for them as well since that's the way they're set up.

It's also not useful to compare scales. HO wheels are far easier to manufacture because the parts are much larger. The smaller the parts, the costlier to make. The difference in the amount of material involved is trivial compared to the difference in labor required to handle and assemble tiny bits and pieces. Plus, each wheelset has to be gauged individually (with the very real likelihood of some not being correct), whereas injection-molded wheels are correctly and permanently gauged.

You can't count on "being vocal enough" to get something from Micro-Trains that goes against the way their business is set up. They'll be more receptive to ideas on different pieces of rolling stock to produce. Metal wheels? Won't happen, even though they have the appearance of being "big enough to handle it." The truth of the matter is, they're not. They must manufacture things the way that suits their business model, or farm it out at additional cost.

And finally, you may be willing to pay a little more for each car to get the wheels you want, but you have to think in terms of thousands of cars being sold. There are quite a few people who will balk at paying more for cars that are already expensive. A variation of just a dollar or two could cause their sales to plummet.

Take this example from an experiment Ford did many years ago. Steel mufflers will always rust, and always need to be replaced at some point during the normal life of a car. Stainless steel mufflers would never need to be replaced, but they cost more to manufacture. So, they offered stainless steel mufflers on their new cars as an option for an additional $20. That's a tiny amount of money compared to the cost of the car, right? Do you know that no one opted to pay for the stainless steel muffler, even knowing they'd absolutely need to replace their regular muffler, and at twice that amount or more of the stainless steel one?

Thanks David. I appreciate your knowledge and passing it on. I always look forward to your reasoned and informative posts.
Fred

David K. Smith wrote: Metal wheels are much more expensive to produce than plastic ones because they require CNC lathes, plus the wheels themselves are made one at a time, and then assembled. Four parts: two turned wheels, one turned axle, and one insulator. Very labor-intensive. MTL does not have this equipment, so it would have to be jobbed out.

Not trying to be argumentative here but they farm out their metal locomotive wheels now so they already have a supplier. The added cost shouldn't be that much more per car. An addition of a dollar per car would simply be absorbed by the consumer without much notice or rejection.

Plastic wheels can be injection-molded by the thousands very quickly. They can pull maybe as many as a million or more shots from a really good mold, maybe as many as a half-dozen wheels at a time. Plus, that's MTL's specialty: tooling excellent molds. So, from an economics standpoint, plastic wheels are not only cheaper for them to produce, they're also very easy for them as well since that's the way they're set up.

Just because they can do it easily is no reason to continue to do it when metal wheels have proven so much better.

It's also not useful to compare scales. HO wheels are far easier to manufacture because the parts are much larger. The smaller the parts, the costlier to make. The difference in the amount of material involved is trivial compared to the difference in labor required to handle and assemble tiny bits and pieces. Plus, each wheelset has to be gauged individually (with the very real likelihood of some not being correct), whereas injection-molded wheels are correctly and permanently gauged.

It shouldn't be as labor intensive as you state. Machines can easily size and assemble the indiviual parts into a complete wheel very quickly.

You can't count on "being vocal enough" to get something from Micro-Trains that goes against the way their business is set up. They'll be more receptive to ideas on different pieces of rolling stock to produce. Metal wheels? Won't happen, even though they have the appearance of being "big enough to handle it." The truth of the matter is, they're not. They must manufacture things the way that suits their business model, or farm it out at additional cost.

Your next paragraph actually answers this one, "you have to think in terms of thousands of cars being sold", and as such, the extra money from the sales of the metal wheels could pay for the CNC machine and machinist, etc. to produce the wheels in the first place. A company must invest in itself to expand with the times. MTL is simply apathetic to the wants and needs of its customers.

And finally, you may be willing to pay a little more for each car to get the wheels you want, but you have to think in terms of thousands of cars being sold. There are quite a few people who will balk at paying more for cars that are already expensive. A variation of just a dollar or two could cause their sales to plummet.

I don't believe that an increase of a dollar per car would cause their sales to plummet, nor even be noticed by the consumer. They raise the prices of their cars on a regular basis depending on what it is. Sometimes those price increases are by leaps and bounds.

Take this example from an experiment Ford did many years ago. Steel mufflers will always rust, and always need to be replaced at some point during the normal life of a car. Stainless steel mufflers would never need to be replaced, but they cost more to manufacture. So, they offered stainless steel mufflers on their new cars as an option for an additional $20. That's a tiny amount of money compared to the cost of the car, right? Do you know that no one opted to pay for the stainless steel muffler, even knowing they'd absolutely need to replace their regular muffler, and at twice that amount or more of the stainless steel one?

Wasn't it P.T. Barnum that was quoted as saying there's a sucker born every minute? Well there’s a fool born every minute too, and that fool is the American consumer. In the case of the muffler, it depends on how the muffler was presented to them. If it was simply listed on the form as a stainless steel muffler - $20.00, one could see how it was turned down. If however, it was listed as a LIFETIME stainless steel muffler - $20.00, I’m sure the fools would have shaken the cobwebs from their brains and checked the box.

David, almost everything you've said hammers down the point I've been making for years. That model railroading, and in particular Z scale, is dying. The biggest Z manufacturer of NA (North American) models won’t change their “business model” to make things better, because they must know there’s no point to it. They have to feel Z will be gone relatively soon, otherwise why wouldn’t they bother to do what other companies do, mainly re-investing and re-machining to make their product line better? Why don’t they even bother to send out promo flyers to all of the hobby shops in NA not currently selling their Z scale? My LHS (local hobby shop) would love to have a Z scale demo going around on a track – but at whose expense? Theirs? Mine? Does MTL (Micro Trains Line) have a demo setup they can offer LHSs at, at least, manufacturers cost? Not that I know of. No, MTLs business model has a defeatist’s aura from the start. At this point, even a fatalistic attitude would be better.

Nope, those in the know, know the scoop. Right now MTL does what they want, simply because they have no competition in the NA marketplace. They are the only company providing a “full line” of NA Z. All of the other manufacturers are just wannabes or tagalongs. The only thing that will get MTL off their ass, is for real competition to kick them into action.

Marklin (mentioned here only because they did produce a few NA models) has a great line of Euro Z scale and has that market covered and is doing a good job… or as best they can at this point in their financial recovery plan. They can only be a threat to MTL if they make a conscience effort to do so – highly unlikely at this point.

AZL (American Z Lines), originally entered the market to produce high quality brass locomotives in Z. At the time, brass was a great idea for those that could afford it. The plastic injection models they then produced were just another way to make money by providing highly detailed models, again, for those that could afford it. They were never real competition to MTL and never attempted to be.

I could mention a string of other manufacturers producing, or soon to be producing Z scale… FR (Freudenreich Feinwerktechnik), WDW Full Throttle (William Dean Wright), InterMountain Railway Co… and also a string of kits makers, not to mention those that have tried and failed to keep it going. But in reality, none of them were enough to make MTL take notice. They entered the market for varying reasons. Some simply to produce what was lacking in Z scale, others to do it better than what was available, but none entered to be actual competition to MTL…. until possibly now…

I left out one new manufacturer from this list because it is the one I feel might have a real chance, down the line, of giving MTL a real run for the money. That company is the upstart Rokuhan. If, by chance, Rokuhan decides to join the NA Z market in force, at the rate it is growing now, it might actually have a chance at making MTL turn around and take notice of what its customers want. Rokuhan is doing this already. It has been listening intently to its customers, and non-customers alike, paying close attention to detail and exactly what is in demand. Although it would take them years to build the kind of product line MTL now enjoys, if they keep going as they have been, MTL would HAVE TO start listening to its customers and make the change, or die in its tracks.

The point is, just because MTL doesn’t do as its customers wish, is no reason to keep silent. I’m sure MTL has a list, a rather long list, of what its customers have been asking for. I’m also sure that they do listen and make the changes and additions they are able to do now, in keeping with their present business model. However, if competition truly arises you can bet your best loco that they will start turning to “The List” and remodel their business model to be a bit more quality conscience. Keep voicing your opinion and wishes to MTL. Get your request down on The List, so that when MTL must change its ways, they know which way to turn. Apparently, right now, they’re stuck on one straight course of lining their pocketbooks instead of re-investing in the company.

Joe