Re: Attention all Canadian Z scalers!

1) It was entirely proper for Todd to post the item in the "Where to buy" thread. Todd did not announce any new product, he was announcing a new place to purchase items. By hijacking his thread.. you violated your own "rule".. your comments about the layout of the ZCS site should have been posted here in the "Off Topic" thread (and I - not John, moved your comments to this second thread for that very reason).

2) JohnK may moderate ME for saying this, but he ain't getting rich off this site. He's paying the bulk of the costs for the site out of his own pocket. (a hint for anyone feeling like donating.. button at the bottom of every page) Rest assured, any "advertisements" as some percieve them are NOT funding the site to ANY significant level. It also is John's right and perogative to set the price for any andvertisements. If the ads don't completely fund the site.. that's his choice, not mine. I will also strongly stand behind John and tell you that any advertizers have zero impact (power) on how John arranges the site.

3) John is operating what he hopes to be a "community" rather than an revenue stream. He is VERY much about each person being able to express their own opinions. John is doing a wonderful thing by donating this site out of his own hard-earned money to the Z community. He also doesn't deserve to be attacked for not having the time to moderate every posting. I'm sure that if the site was John's major source of income, then he could afford to put the time in to completely re-structure all the forum layout, but as it is, he's pedaling fast just to keep the site running.

4) "Censorship" is a very ugly word. Today, freedom of speech is often taken to mean "I can insult anyone I wish with impunity." To repeat: John is the owner of ZCS. He can delete any posting he wishes (including this one) because it is HIS site. If I take offense to such deletion.. I can take my 'business' elsewhere, but I do not have the right to complain about such and then try to defend my position by merely crying "censorship". John bends over backwards to allow try to ALL opinions here, but he must also protect himself allowing this site to become filled primarily with incendary comments and/or slander. For me to claim "I was censored" is to try to say that I have more of a right to decide the site's contents than it's owner does. There are many such sites that do limit what people are allowed to say.. I don't frequent them because I disagree with the owner's policies, but I don't attack them for it.. it was their choice, and they and their advertisers lose my 'business'. I vote with my wallet and my shoes. I don't like manufacture X, or dealer Y, so I don't buy their product. If I don't like a site's policies.. I don't visit the site.

4a) On a side note.. I want many of the threads here on ZCS to "expire". A discussion of "who is going to NTS in Jan 2006" has extremely little relevence to "Modelling in 2012", and I feel that such threads should be able to "pass away" quietly in the night. There's just yet not been enough hours in the day to go thru all the 14,000 postings and weed stuff out.

5) There seeems to be some confusion here about what is a formal paid advertisement, versus what is an announcement by John to the members for "get free stuff". The NZT monthly contest is not a paid advertisement, it is posted where it is on the page because John wants to be sure that people know about the contest so they can particpate. Likewise.. the interview with Evergreen is not an advertisement.. it's an INTERVIEW with them about modelling methods, it's the very thing you asked for.. it's a "how-to".

6) I can't possibly disagree more with you than about the site layout. John regularly posts "items of interest" in random spots around the site.. just to keep it fresh. It's like the weather.. if you don't like the look today, then wait a bit and you'll see something new.

7) In regard to the "Where are the how-to's".. I know that it's John's deep desire to have such items here on the site. The problem is.. nobody is writing them.

8) As to the "this site is about modelling" comment: This same subject keeps recurring in various forms, and I want to put in my two cents:

There are MANY levels of model train enthusiasts, from the pure scratch-builder through to the guy who is a "patron", and only operates RTR. There is room here on ZCS for ALL of them. It seems to me that some people have rather odd definitions of what a "modeller" and "modelling" is. They seem to want to say "I (chest thump) am a modeller.. YOU are not!"

To arbitrarily declare that "non modelling talk is going on" or "it's all advertising" (or yes, even "goo-gaa"...) is to deliberately insult a significant portion of the people who visit here. Yes, there is a section at the top center of the front page for "New Product Announcements". That section is there, not because the site is focused on sellers, but rather, that section exists because a number of us here are buyers. I am not going to scratch-build my own rolling stock, I'm going to purchase 85% or more of it from vendors, therefore, I want to know about new products. But that doesn't mean that I'm not operating a MODEL railroad. Some portion of "modelling" is about purchasing products to assist with the construction of the end result.. running trains. I'm allowed to buy glue and styrene.. why is it anathema for me to purchase RTR buildings (or kits)?

The very top of this website is a gallery of pictures contributed by the members. John takes a lot of criticism for the site being so slow.. mainly because the site is so graphics heavy. To me, people who make that critique have lost focus on the fact that this is a place to show off your work. The extra images are there for the very reason of prompting others to exercise the creativity they possess in the enjoyment of this HOBBY.

While I'm on my soapbox.. On more than one occasion, certain people have complained that ZCS chat "is not about modelling". For goodness sake.. it's CHAT! You can NOT tell me that if a group of guys got together in the same physical location and had a Club Meeting.. that the conversation would ONLY ever be "you didn't put enough shredded foam on that armature". Someone in the meeting is going to talk about the Phillies winning a game, someone in the meeting is going to talk about the car accident they had. But.. in ZCS chat, nobody EVER said at any time that I can't ask a question about how to cement down ballast. Chat is Chat! If anything, it's something to do WHILE I connect rail joiners. Whining about the topics in chat the same thing as complaining about some advertisements here and there.. certain people try to take it on themselves to define what "modelling" is, and then declare that Stony is not a modeller because he choses to purchase his trees rather than hand craft them. It's offensive to me.

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On a personal level, I want ZCS to be a warm, friendly site where we can share ideas, and tell each other about new discoveries we've made (a.k.a. items for purchase), and show off what we've done with our model trains. I'm entirely willing to donate my time, labor (and my money) to making the site a success.

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Self-recrimination notice: I reserve the right to extend or revise my comments at any point in the future (without warning).

So much to digest. First, interaction between modelers, retailers, and manufacturers are integral not only to Z scale modeling but to every product produced. The forum category "Product Announcements" should be used for new Z products, and I would highly encourage posting of new products here. I would even encourage non-ZSC sponsors to post their new products, because sometimes the regular advertising avenues are too slow, fall short of their audience, or the worst all, lack of advertising funds.

I know you were exaggerating about looking like Walthers and trying to make a point. First of all, the Holiday Free Banners is my way of helping out the Z community. If this program helps drive traffic and maybe new business to them, then it is a win/win situation. And of course if they find any value of a banner on ZCS, then they may want to enroll as a sponsor of ZCS. I ran the free banners for Sacramento NTS 2011. Not everything is dollars and cents. The TBS product image placement was my 'perk' to Karin and David since I gave free holiday banners.

Joe, you and I have had 'aesthetics' discussion in November, ZCS is evolving, and will always change (hopefully for the better!). ZCS will always test new features, if they work, then they will stay.

Stony, I agree 101% with everything you stated, thank you. Not only purging irrevelant postings but re-assigning image galleries is on top of our housekeeping duties. I have only censored one forum posting and that was to remove a phone number and address. And Joe, yes that is true about one of your postings which it still is here under the 'Test' category.

This thread has deviated so much, I am not going to comment on everything except one more topic that I feel needs response from me, personally.

When it was announced that ZCS was for sale on Ebay, I must have emailed Brad about a dozen emails containing 20-30 questions about everything I had questions on. I then blasted emails to about five other modelers asking their thoughts, one of them offered his services. I realized full well that this would be a hobby for Stony and I. One of our longterm goals was to have ZCS maintain her expenditures with sponsorships and donations. Prior to August 2010, due to membership growth, ZCS went through several hosting plans starting from $20.00 then $75.00 a month and ending at $150.00 a month. Fortunately with Stony's help we streamlined ZCS and virtually updated and upgraded 95% of the site. ZCS is hosted on Site5, using a Virtual Private Server Level 3 configuration which costs about $100.00 per month. But, as you know that does not include any licensing fees, commercial applications, or other costs.

One of our other goals was to provide 'affordable' advertising for the 'mom & pop' companies which never has enough money for advertising. If ZCS gains more sponsors, I would love to lower our current yearly sponsorship fees. I don't want popups, google ads, or other obnoxious ad banners on ZCS, and I know no one else does. So, what if I have to adjust ZCS home page some?

Want to have some fun? Go to another model train forum, and place your left hand over their home page banner. Cool, now go to the next model train forum, and put your left hand over their home page banner, and continue on to any more you want to test. Don't they start looking the same? Not the same with ZCS.

Now, I would like to invoke some of Garth's wisdom. Let's get back to Z!

This discussion is done, and locked.

John