A great time to be in Z!

Back on topic indeed (in the off topic forum...).

Well, maybe if you run US material it is a great time. But when you run german epoch IV...

Let's have a look through the Marklin website:
- engines: the railbus is all that is left
- goods cars: 8630 and 8624. Not even the 8605, 8622 or 8610 are in production!
- passenger cars: the 8710/11/12 set.

So there are 7 pieces "in production". And if you order them, they don't deliver...

If you call that a "great time" then I would like a bit of what you are smoking/drinking/inhaling.

Hello Johan,
Havoc wrote:

Well, maybe if you run US material it is a great time. But when you run german epoch IV...

Let's have a look through the Marklin website:
[...]
So there are 7 pieces "in production". And if you order them, they don't deliver...

If you call that a "great time" then I would like a bit of what you are smoking/drinking/inhaling.

hmmm... the topic is that it's a good time to be in Z...

Right now I drink a bavarian beer, I love it...
...and remember I'm living in Northern Germany...

You are right, if you look only at Maerklin and the European epochs (I would like to get more in Epoch I or II) it is a hard time. Yesterday I got the new catalog for Z from Maerklin, and there to me it looks even worse. Especially when I look at some details in the book. They have a car set and recommend an engine (by item#) that doesn't exist in the catalog. So I don't know where we are heading in this aspect.

But if on the other hand you have a look at what we can get from other sources it really is a great time in Z right now, and I believe it will get better over time. The advantage of the time is that it is possible to manufacture smaller batches of an item through new technology. Laser cutting kits from wood or carton for example is a thing that wasn't available earlier, but now it can be done. This makes it easier for people to create new items at a lesser cost as if they had to make a mold first.
Etching is another point that helps people create new items. And then look at all those people who introduced amazing item lately. If I name Alvaro with his cars and now his autoracks, the autoracks from AZL, or Karin with her kits, spurzfrokler also did show great items that will be available soon (and more is to come), or A-Zett even if he only builds for himself and I surely forgot to mention a big lot of people here now but it shows that there is much potential in Z.

Next are the train shows. Z scale is coming up more and more. This will help to show people that Z is there, and there to stay. I remember when I went to the first show back in 2003 or 2004 people from other scales saw that Z was there, but they said that's only a toy. Now they have learned differently.

As I said the main downside currently is that if you go into a hobby store as a newbie and ask for model railroad, then Z isn't available as it should be. And this is what doesn't help us to get more beginners into the scale. But if you did find the entrance somehow, and search the web a bit you will find all those gems, even if it sometimes is hard to get them home to you...
...and not only because of the money you will need...

And a last thing I would like to mention is that if you get into the scale then you will find that the connection between the user and the manufacturers are as close as you wouldn't believe possible. And maybe Maerklin will get closer if they can manage to get going again for real again.

So I still say it is a great time to be in Z, but of course there still is a long way to go ahead.

Me and my Small Wonder-Z crew (son) will be at the Woodstock Ontario train show Sunday Oct 18 to Spread Z Word!



Todd

You are right, if you look only at Maerklin and the European epochs

If you're into european modelling there isn't much else. All the others you mention are scenery and/or US. There are indeed a few smaller firms but they are mostly niche products. I mean nothing to build a complete train out, only some special cars/engines wher having one of them is plenty. You don't make a layout with only "freaks". That is if they want to sell to you, I tried contacting Krüger a few times, don't even answers (not in german and not in english).

As I said the main downside currently is that if you go into a hobby store as a newbie and ask for model railroad, then Z isn't available as it should be. And this is what doesn't help us to get more beginners into the scale. But if you did find the entrance somehow, and search the web a bit you will find all those gems, even if it sometimes is hard to get them home to you...
...and not only because of the money you will need...

That's why you need the bulk of a large company. But it doesn't look as if Marklin has much interest anymore. It could be temporary but if they keep this going for a few years longer the base layer of modellers will be gone.

Anybody an idea how to start your own production?

I have to agree fully. We really need Marklin. I absolutely love the products from manufacturers such as FR. They offer unique products that stand out on a layout, but they are limited and what they can produce. Marklin has a wealth of Z scale locomotives and rolling stock at their disposal. If you really think about how many different items have been released over the years, it is very impressive.

I was VERY encouraged to see a Z scale locomotive included in the EXCLUSIV 3/2009 catalog. This is a new version of the Ludmilla. Every new release is good for us.

Until Marklin is back on their feet, I highly recommend supporting the smaller manufactures as best as you can. These are the companies that are sticking with the scale through these tough economic times. O course, I can't help you if they won't return your inquires, but there are others who are more than willing to do business with you.

Rob

"Anybody an idea how to start your own production?"

It all depends on the rights. If makrlin abandons z scale, then it might be possible to get everything cheap.

For example when the berliner tt bahn quit, Tillig bought everything as scrap and continued producing tt scale (1/120) trains. Some of the original eastern german items are still available. They have a very good starter set program with roadbed and model rail sets and both east and west german rolling stock, mainly epoch III-IV and unified germany in epoch V, with a few ep. II items. (they still sell the first model train set i got when i was 2 and a half, it's the one with the br81 and a mixed passanger and freight train; btw. my old one is still in working condition)

If it would be impossible to get the old molds, then a laser scanner can be used to get the form of existing models and a prototyping machine can be used to produce plastic items or a high precision multihead cnc to make multiple items in one go. Another possiblity is to use etched parts, but that requires manual assembly.

Painting can be done with stamp painting, either with an etched pattern or with a computer controlled ink stamp printer. (the latter would allow different road numbers for _every_ item)

For mechanical parts, it's relatively easy to purchase cogs and other small parts, not to mention small dc motors. Wheels can be turned on a small lathe or by a small cnc, while insulator parts are the only ones that need molds. With careful planning and a good cnc, this can be as small as plastic rings between the axle and the full metal wheels with full metal locomotive frames and bodies and a few insulated screws that hold everything together.

A very small cnc, etching and ink jet stamp printing allows small series without extra tooling costs, even if every item in the series is a bit unique.

Anybody an idea how to start your own production?

Painting can be done with...

For mechanical parts, it's relatively easy to...

To write about is easy. To produce a reasonable quality locomotive requires lots of time, expertise and money. What I would do is open my safe, count the content, and If there is at least $250,000.00 disposable cash beside the money to cover my living expenses for at least ten years, I would look for reliable subcontractors and start to build a small business. (Could be nice ) The other way is to borrow money, use sweat equity, borrow more money, then figure out how to pay the money back...
Just kidding. If you can build FR quality locomotives and cars, do it one by one. Enjoy the hobby, sell the models to good paying collectors and have fun.

Lajos

That about starting production was not very serious, you know...

If it takes you 10 years then it isn't worth doing. At least if you are talking of making it a full time job. Two years max for first pieces out of tooling. And yes, I do know what tooling costs (have designed plastic parts for a living). A small cnc is even out of reach. The wheels are the another hard job. I have turned wheels (gauge 1 size) and even that isn't easy. Hard enough not to try this in Z.

A better idea would be to do some kind of study of a goods car (to start with) and persuade one of the cinese manufacturers to make it in a "limited" run.

ztrack wrote:

.... I highly recommend supporting the smaller manufactures as best as you can. Rob

Rob,
I'm trying my best to do this, but I'm only one person.

Alex

Tokyo, Japan

If it takes you 10 years then it isn't worth doing.

The development, testing and first production run shouldn't take more than 6 - 9 months, but to generate an income, competitive with a good full time job could take 10 years. Another note: there are not too many Z-scaler around, who really put their money where their mouth is...

Lajos

If you look at it like that you're probably right.

Another note: there are not too many Z-scaler around, who really put their money where their mouth is...

Well, it isn't a cheap hobby.

Well, it isn't a cheap hobby.

Trust me, I've learned it on the hard way.
So no more manufacturing, only modeling and module-ing.

Lajos

SmallWonderZ wrote:

Me and my Small Wonder-Z crew (son) will be at the Woodstock Ontario train show Sunday Oct 18 to Spread Z Word!



Todd

Todd are you going to be at Niagara Falls, or Kintchener or Ancaster later in the fall. If so maybe we will see you in one of those places.

cheerz Garth

Havoc wrote:

If you look at it like that you're probably right.

Another note: there are not too many Z-scaler around, who really put their money where their mouth is...

Well, it isn't a cheap hobby.

True Z scale has never been inexpensive. If you want cheap... the other scales have Z beat. But let's also face it, Z is addicting and offers so much more potential in the given space plus the detailing is just amazing. We have great running locomotive which keep us spoiled. No motor replacements for us!

I know this recession has been hard for hobby and our budgets. But what I have not liked is the backlash I have seen from members of our Z community against manufacturers and the pricing they must charge. We have lost too many small Z scale manufacturers who have tried to meet these price demands, but realized they were not making what they need to in order to keep going. This is not the Z scale I knew and love.

The fact is, if you look back at the pricing of Z since the 1980s and 1990s, in some ways, pricing has decreased. In others it had stayed the same. There are more options than ever, with new rolling stock and locomotives hitting the market every few weeks. Let's focus on the fact that we are getting what we have wanted. We are getting new locomotives, new freight cars, new passenger sets and new accessories. Our yards are filling up with an amazing variety of rolling stock. It is a time of growth for the scale.

Again, I encourage all of you to support the Z manufacturers. These are brave people who have taken a huge risk to work in Z when N and HO offer a much larger pool of potential customers. We all will benefit and enjoy the fruits of their labor, but only if they can survive during this challenging time.

Rob

ztrack wrote:

Again, I encourage all of you to support the Z manufacturers. Rob

Rob, I'm trying the best that I can, but I can only embezzle so much money without getting caught.

Alex

Tokyo, Japan

Good point. You don't want to push it. Keep things on the down low.

Rob

Walthers 2010 N and Z catalog: Just an FYI, I got 7 Z scale pictures published in the Catalog this year.

Congratulations Bob !!!!
I'm glad to hear that Z scale is going to have a bigger national exposure.
Thom